I have been back preaching now for a while. At first I managed to stay ahead in my preparation but time has already caught up with me and I am back to a week by week pattern. It was harvest with us on Sunday morning. We don't decorate the church with vegetables and so on but I do like to preach a harvest type sermon (Acts 14:15-17 this time) and we sing those great harvest hymns. In the evening we came to L of TULIP, Limited Atonement, the most difficult perhaps but clear enough in Scripture. There were some missing morning and evening but one or two visitors including people from Ghana, South Africa, Madagascar and South Korea, which added to our international feel (Nigeria, Romania, the Philippines, etc, already represented).
5 comments:
Hello Gary, Be nice to see it available on the church's website soon, so I can listen to your sermon on Limited Atonement. I may get back to you about it, as I believe that the Bible is very clear that Limited Atonement (Christ only died for the elect) is not taught in the Bible~ But I will wait to listen to it first, to see exactly where you stand on this important doctrine. Your friend, Karl
Sorry not to get back to you before. (I did check out your blog). I found it interesting to go through it again. There are a lot of verses that seem to contradict LA and no simple proof text to clinch it but I think the answer must be that Christ died to save his people rather than to make it possible, which is a theological argument. If I remember correctly you take a distinctive view of the elect that would probably give you more wiggle room (if I can use that phrase) than the Arminians. PS You get an anonymous reference at the end of the sermon as I recall your desire to say Christ died for you to individuals.
Hello Gary, I have listened to your sermon on Limited Atonement~ Why did you not take anytime to look at 2Peter 2:1? I know that 2Peter 2:1 causes problems for the position of Limited Atonement- Would have been nice to hear where you stood on 2Peter 2:1.
Also, I heard where you mentioned me in your sermon- you claimed that nobody in the Bible said, 'Christ died for you'. Are you sure about that? I know of one place in the Bible where the apostle Paul did- In 1Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul clearly writes what he preached to them, the gospel by which they were saved- What did Paul preached to them? What gospel did they receive? How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day- Notice Paul preached to them, 'Christ died for our sins' and because he was preaching to them, 'our' obviously included them, which meant Paul was preaching Christ died for their sins (which would be like preaching Christ died for you) - If Paul believed in Limited Atonement, he could not have preached this way- Seems like Paul was not a 5 point calvinist!
Thanks for taking time to listen Karl. Sorry you were not convinced.
I skipped 2 Pet 1 chiefly due to time restraint but also because the argument is a little difficult to follow.
The Lord who bought them is not the Lord Jesus, but God the Father (Despotes not kurios, the word always used when Christ is spoken of as Lord). Despotes is speaks of the power of masters over servants. God has such power over all mankind and apparently everywhere else the word appears referring to a divine person, it refers to the Father (though there may be an exception). So the meaning is not that they were redeemed by Christ's blood (anyway when redemption by Christ is mentioned, the price is usually noted too or something similar). The word "bought" refers then to temporal mercies and deliverance, which they enjoyed and looks like a reference back to Dt 32:6.
I don't think your 1 Cor 15 argument works as it is still 'Christ died for our sins' not 'Christ died for your sins'. What you need is a passage where an apostle tells a pagan or Jewish congregation Christ died for your sins. There are no examples of that in Scripture. Therefore the phrase is probably best avoided. I would stick to Christ died for sinners, which we all agree is true.
Hope that helps. Every blessing.
Hello Gary, Thanks for your reply. The word 'bought' in the Greek is 'agorazo' and means, 'properly to go to market, that is (by implication) to purchase; specifically to redeem:- buy, redeem. (Strongs)- Who is the One who shed His blood on the Cross to redeem or to purchase sinners? Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24KJV) It is Christ Jesus our Lord. And how are we justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus- How do we receive this free gift which Christ paid in full? Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 5:1KJV)It is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone- How are we able to put faith in Christ? And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: It is by the work of the Holy Spirit- But can the Holy Spirit be resisted? Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Yes, the Holy Spirit can be resisted-
But will God save a people for Himself and fulfill His perfect plan exactly as He planned? Yes, He will ~ some scriptures Eph. 1, Rev. 20:15 and Rev. 21 God is in complete control- He knows the beginning to the end.
So why say all this- It is very clear without any doubt that 'Despotes' refers to Jesus, because of the word 'agorazo' which means to redeem, purchase, or bought, and not speaking about the Father and the temporal mercies and deliverance. And because these false teachers are NOT saved, and have a place in hell, does not mean that Christ did not die for them on the Cross, but they simply rejected the Lord Jesus and His death, burial and resurrection (they did not receive the gift of salvation through faith), and they had pleasure in unrighteousness and not in the truth, and will not be found in the Book of Life, and be cast into the Lake of Fire (where all unbelievers will go)Rev. 20:15
And concerning 1Cor. 15:1-4, You say that Paul says, 'Christ died for our sins', and not 'Christ died for your sins', but by preaching the gospel that 'Christ died for our sins' to the people he preached to (which means it will include the sins of the unsaved people before him whom he was preaching the gospel to) will mean that Christ died for you- I think that is very clear, and so I disagree that we should avoid to say that Christ died for you. Even our Lord and Saviour, Jesus said, For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16) There is no way that the word 'world' in the context of the verse can mean anything other than 'all people'.
May the Lord bless you as you serve Him, From your friend and brother in Christ, Karl
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